[[Bullet]] Greg Kasavin.

Greg Kasavin – A stunning person who managed to fulfill the cherished dream of millions of young players. In childhood, he outplayed everything that could. And already in high school he managed to turn his hobby into serious work and go from internship to the post of chief editor in one of the most important foreign publications . Those ten years he spent in game journalism can be considered a golden age in the history of the American site Gamespot.

Having written enough about games, Greg began to make them. Studio Supergiant Games , which he founded with Gavin Simon And Amir RAO , released two amazing games – Bastion And Transistor, And while he is not going to stop. The latter's exit seemed to us a great reason to call Kasavin to talk. This is what he told us.

Who is Greg Kasavin

I was born in Moscow.Vsyo Eshe Govoryu Po-Russki, No Ploho. I understand in Russian much better than I say-to speak English is much easier for me.

My family emigrated to the USA when I was about two and a half years old. Since then I have not been to Russia and I don’t remember almost anything about it. Now I live in San Francisco, and my parents are here nearby.

Five Greg Kasavin Games

Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars. Role: Producer

Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3. Role: Producer

Spec Ops: The Line. Role: Producer

Bastion. Role: designer, screenwriter

Transistor. Role: designer, screenwriter

Greg Kasavin continues to write about games in his blog, where he explores games from the point of view of the narrative.

I loved the games almost as much as I remember. I played even when I was very small, in the old Ultima and other role -playing games of that time. For me at that age they were something amazing.

I never knew how to program and did not study, but I really loved to write. I started writing about games in high school. I outplayed into a mass of games, and I really wanted all this to be not just that you could benefit from it. As a result, this resulted in a trial period on the site Gamespot , which in 1996 just started. I worked there for more than ten years, and this was my first official job. I was in love with her, although I would never have thought that I would hold out on her for so long.

► Fifth Ultima is one of the greatest role -playing games in history. It is a pity that time has been overcome – today, like all the no online Ultima, is very rare.

But at the same time, I believed that if I do not experience myself in the development of games, I would be very sorry about it. Once I had the opportunity to join Electronic Arts as a producer Command & Conquer 3 And, subsequently, Red Alert 3. Work on the latter was especially exciting – it is completely and completely personal: the Russian origin and enthusiasm for Japanese culture for such a game is a good combination.

At the same work, I met people with whom we founded Supergiant. In 2009, we left EA – Amir and Gavin, designers of those Command & Conquer. And we began to do the BASTION. In parallel, I managed to work out in 2K Games over Spec Ops: The Line, But in the end he returned to joint work with Amir and Gavin.

That's the whole story. I am engaged in things related to games, more than half of my life, and I am still not tired.

How experience criticism helps to make games

The situation of a game critic taught me to think about games … critical. Well, in the end, this is the work of criticism. Those who just play games have a certain basic idea of ​​what is happening, what they like and do not like. But sometimes you need to dig deeper, go beyond what lies on the surface. Why it works? Why is it pleasure or, conversely, annoying?

That is Kaboom Slots Casino, something like this is done by gamemeranders?

No, not at all necessarily. Of course, some game designers work, but not all.

► SPEC OPS: The Line Casavin produced for about a year. The plot of this militant eventually spun on almost cooler than in Bioshock Infinite.

In any case, in addition to critical thinking, the work of a critic gave me a large reference baggage. I played a huge number of games – and it helps a lot.

It seems to me that today there are no really original ideas. If the game designer has an idea, there is almost certainly a game in which they once tried to do something similar. And the opportunity to name such games, understand whether this idea worked in them, or, if not, is it possible to do something about it, very by hand when creating your own project.

Well, having experience criticism, I can say for sure what I personally like. For a game designer, it is very valuable to know who his game should be designed for. You do not always need to try to please everyone, there is no need to try to put all possible and impossible chips in the game. It is better to take a sight for a specific audience with specific preferences that will really love your game for the fact that she is just that.

How Bastion and Transistor invented

In Supergiant, I am engaged in two main things. Firstly, texts-including the whole history and design of the world. Secondly, I had most of the level design, I planned almost half of all levels.

My responsibilities for Bastion and Transistor were similar, but in the case of Transistor, I also thought about the integration of sound – music, voice acting, effects and other things. Since we are a small team, many of us have to combine several dissimilar duties. This is interesting.

And how ideas appear? We doubt very much that the same Bastion began with the glider and offhand of the abandoned idea in the spirit of “Let's make a surreal action movie about the end of the world, where the elderly storyteller comments on each of our actions, and against the background the music of Darren Korba plays”.

Everything is true, we work at all. Both games began with a small idea, the final plan was formed gradually. We did not have a design document or something like. Bastion arose from the sentence “Let's make a role -player in which you build the world around you”. We still did not know what was meant, it just seemed to us that this was a rich idea, from which there could be many interesting things. The main points of gameplay grew out of it, it determined the appearance of the game (remember the earth that rises from the abyss right under your feet), the main theme of the narrative, and so on.

► BASTION was not ideal in terms of gameplay, but its approach to the narrative, amazing sound and the visual part made it a truly outstanding work. And by the next Supergiant game, many errors have been corrected.

And so the game gradually grew up. Starting development, we had no idea what scale it could take. There was only a goal – to create a whole game. We imagined when we had to stop, and just “listened” to the game, added what she needed most. Built it, a piece by a piece.

Transistor development was similar in a similar way. We wanted to make a more thoughtful, more strategic game in the science fiction world. There was an idea to tell a story about a woman without a voice and a man without a body and consider their relationship, to see in which direction they can go. And again we did not want to plan very much in advance, although at the early stage we had to discuss the tone of the game for a long time in order to imagine what its atmosphere would be. We immediately began to explore this topic through art, music and so on, so that the gameplay and mood of the game were felt as a whole.

About holes in the script

Transistor has a lot of ambiguous things, a lot of inconsistencies, and this fits perfectly into the concept. But from sound silence to a hole in the narrative of some half a step. Where the border flies throughout?

This balance is not easy to observe. We sought to make sure that everyone has a superficial understanding of what is happening and what is standing at stake, but at the same time ask wider questions open to interpretation. I think this is obvious that Cyberpank influenced Transistor, especially writers such as Philip to. Dick.

Yes, by the way, we immediately thought about Dick. Communication with the dead, all this confusion with what reality is real ..

Yes! In my opinion, a sense of uncertainty is one of the main features of Cyberpan, and we wanted to achieve this. In matters like the real nature of the Universe, we completely consciously played with this and similar ideas. But at first we wanted to build a story in one way, but in the end it turned out a little differently, with a more accent on the relationship between the characters. Although in fact these relations have always been at the heart of history.

► TRANSISTOR narratives several layers. It is not so difficult to figure out what we are involved in ourselves, but if you want to delve into the principles underlying the universe, you will have to delve into details properly.

It is very nice to see that there are discussions around all this. We believe in our players. There are games with volumetric training, games that treat you as if you have never played anything. It seems … humiliating. And we wanted to make to invest in the gameplay and the narrative that the player's mind would respond. And despite the fact that the game should be whole and finished, the lack of answers to some questions will not interfere with this.

But do you know the answers to these questions?

The game is a canon, and if there is no answer to it, it is done on purpose. Of course, we, as its creators, know the correct answer, but we decided not to turn on these details in order to make the game deeper.

Here, in my opinion, the difference between games and other works becomes noticeable. Take books. Different people can read the book and interpret it in their own way, but sometimes these interpretations are incorrect. Even if the writer assumed something very specific, without the context in which he existed, the reader can simply understand him wrong. This is not always scary, but it can easily happen.

As for games – you need to play games. You play in your own way, get your experience, and we cannot say that someone's experience is wrong. He is someone else. How players interpret the story is part of their personal experience, and here it is not necessary to be correct and wrong answers.

This is one of the reasons why we decided to leave part of the issues open. At best, sensations from the game should seem more personal. Instead of imposing an unambiguous interpretation, we preferred to make a story open so that players could bring something to it and get a stronger impressions.

The most important thing

Today, many games completely abandon gameplay mechanisms in favor of narrative. From this, installation games like Dear Esther and Gone Home are obtained. Is it worth considering such works as a problem and threat to “real games”, or their appearance is not at all as dangerous as it seems to some critics?

It seems to me that the current period in the development of games in the future will be considered almost as an era of the Renaissance. Когда большая часть игр все еще стремится к сложности и вызову и у людей остается предвзятое мнение о том, что может считаться игрой, а что нет, появление чисто повествовательных игр — это замечательно. I enjoyed things like Stanley Parable And Gone Home, I really like the purpose of these games.

But I am moving from Gone Home to Dota 2 – diametrically opposite game, – and she pleases me no less. As I said, no game should strive to achieve everything. We players have a lot of options, and these options do not exclude each other. I am very glad that we have both purely narrative games and purebred games in which history is not so important (if it is at all), but a mechanical aspect, the need to do complex things is very important to achieve skill. This is no less good.

► In Dota 2, Kasavin has about a thousand hours, but this does not interfere with enjoying purely plot games – such as Gone Home.

Supergiant is interested in combining both sides. We do not think that these things cannot coexist harmoniously. In the end, many of my favorite games combine a very interesting gameplay with a very interesting narrative. I know this is possible, the game and history do not have to separate. But they can be separated, and this can lead to really amazing results.

And what games, in your opinion, have coped with the combination of these entities best?

There are many of them. When we did Transistor, we were inspired, among other things, classic step -by -step strategies and tactical rooks – for example, the first Fallout. Those role -playing games are one of the best examples of combining the game and plot. The best role -playing games remember for wonderful stories and characters, but gameplay in them is no less important. Fallout is a very strong game that I have passed repeatedly and very attached to the characters there and the specific points of the plot including.

► the first two Fallout – games that still have no equal. No one else dares to do something so cynical and bright at the same time.

Even earlier there were classic Ultima. They began to put before heavy moral dilemmas many years before it was fashionable to focus on it. In Ultima's dilemmas there was remarkable ambiguity, duality – now games like this are succeeding in this The Walking Dead. Here is a blind merchant, he says: “It costs ten gold”, and the game asks: “How much will you pay?»She doesn't judge you. You can say: “I will give him two golden!"Or something like that. And nothing. It was really great when, against the backdrop of a grandiose fantasy story, such minor moments occurred. Those games really used the advantages of the game format, because you make these decisions, and only you.

But there are more linear stories in which there are fewer forks, but they are simply remarkably transmitted by gaming means. Among them there are a lot of Japanese role -playing, like Final Fantasy Tactics. In some Japanese games, stories with a minimum of words are great: for example, Super Metroid – unexpectedly an emotional game in which there is almost no traditional narrative. Personally, I am very inspired by such things. The atmosphere helps to feel the connection with the characters and understand what they feel – I like the games in which it works.

On the benefits of restrictions

A big surprise for us is how work in a small team is liberating. Of course, this gives rise to restrictions, but there are always restrictions, at any level.

We felt that the only significant limitation is for us – our own ability to create. In work on Transistor, when we have more resources after the success of Bastion, we decided to leave everything as it is. The studio could grow significantly, and grow rapidly, but our work style is largely built to remain a small team and squeeze the maximum from what is. We like it so much.

I can’t speak for everyone-everyone is arranged in different ways-but, based on experience in large studios, I can say that it is more difficult to make decisions with a lot of people. You need to make a presentation, collect a meeting-just to solve something. We are much more mobile.

► Photo "Kostyak" Supergiant straight from the new 2011. From left to right: Logan Cunningham, Darren Corb, Amir Rao, Jen Z, Gavin Simon and Greg Kasavin.

We just do what delights us, and move forward as fast as we can – in such conditions the framework as if not. If we are limited by something, then only our own time, imagination or something like that. Although there are no problems over time-we can afford to do something as much as we need. We just don't want to mess with one project for a dozen years. We are interested in doing new things.

But still, I think that the restrictions are useful. If you have no restrictions, this will almost certainly lead to paralysis. If you ask a small child, which, in his opinion, should be an ideal game, he will describe what is almost impossible to implement. Minecraft , mixed with something … In general, he will unite with a dozen different games.

The restrictions are valuable in order to maintain a stimulus in order to feel progress, and not strive for something unattainable. This returns us to the fact that I talked about our approach to the development of games: when we started to make a Bastion, we could not imagine that this would result in something so successful. They started with the little things – they taught the character to run around the screen, made him so that he waved a hammer by pressing the button – forced the basic things to work, so that it would later see where this will lead us. This is instead of immediately representing something huge and epic. Think about the final scope of the project from the very beginning – too frightening thoughts.

And again about game journalism

Probably the most interesting thing I have ever written is satirical articles for the day of the fool. Once upon a time I reviewed chess, as if it were a new game that had just come out. It was the nineties, so the whole article was written from the prospect of a journalist from that time. Well, you know, there were complaints about the size of the card, that the card is only one … I still sometimes re-read, in my opinion, it turned out well, it turned out well.

There was also a similar article for Gamespot – an overview of real life as mmorpg. Then just recently came out Star Wars Galaxies. And even though the texts were satirical, for me there is a lot of truth in them. I play games all my life, they strongly affect how I see the world. Eternal topic for jokes: as, for example, played in The Sims and you begin to measure your condition with invisible indicators. Yeah, the scale of the bladder is full, we live.

To some extent, it is really.

► Star Wars Galaxies was one of the main online open beginnings. Alas, she turned out to be too unusual for her to wait for a commercial success. The developers first tried to remake it so that it was “like everyone else”, and then closed.

And what was it like to move from game journalism to development? How it influenced the worldview?

Everything went more than smooth. The site is actually a large computer program, and therefore Gamespot as a project for me was very similar to the game. I worked in the same way with artists, engineers and all others, and my position then helped not to get lost in development.

But what was a surprise – and I'm not sure why – is that people in development really are concerned about the reviews. I really did not know that everything was so running. When I wrote, I wrote for ordinary players, for those who need to help decide what to play, but did not think that it matters for developers. In fact, they are trying to foresee what they will write about them, but they are never sure of anything. I now understand this: when you work on something for so long, your point of view changes a lot, and it becomes difficult to predict how others will react to this.

But the developers are the worst critics for themselves. Usually – at least, it was with me – in the reviews it does not pop up that which was not found before working on the game. It seems to me that the developers are well aware of what they are doing, and just hope that people will like it and no one will notice problems. This is all magic, tricks – you can only hope that the audience will not notice that you are hiding behind the curtain.

* * *

We still have no plans about what we will do next. This is not entirely usually for studios-developers, because by the end of the work on the project many already represent what their next game will be.

We don't work like that. We invest everything that we have in one specific game. It is not worth making plans for the future in our case, since the future depends entirely on how things to develop with the current project.

But now we can do anything, although so far we are not quite aware that it will be. We are going to relax a bit, and then we will get together with our thoughts and decide what next.